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RE: [ST] Accidents (was (mandatory jail (was IDIOTS))



I read a very interesting psychology book a few years ago entitled "Risk".  Its a well known book in transport theory circles. It analysed humans' attitude to risk and used a number of transport case studies to support the concept of a risk thermometer; that is, individuals tend to have a target level of risk (different for each individual) and their behaviour adjusts to keep them exposed to that much risk.  Apparently it all harks back to natural selection and the fact that over the eons too little or too much risk meant you were less likely to survive...

Anyway, two fascinating case studies were:

Seat belts.  These are heralded as one of the great road transport safety advances.  Statistics show clearly that your chances of surviving a car crash with a seatbelt are significantly greater than without a seatbelt, and your injuries will be less serious.  However, the book presented (for I think about 25 countries which have introduced mandatory seatbelt usage) data for overall road related injuries and deaths, including pedestrians, cyclists, bikers etc.  Surprise surprise, every country showed a marked and sustained increase in injuries and deaths immediately following the introduction of mandatory seatbelt usage.  This is attributed to the fact that car drivers feel (and, indeed, are) at lower risk when belted-up and consequently take more risks when driving to restore their risk thermometer to its normal temperature; unfortunately this increases the risk to all other road users.

Accident blackspots.  A particular favourite of the UK transport authorities, who identify accident blackspots and then remedy them by changing the layout, improving signage, traffic lights, speed limits etc.  Not surprisingly, the accident statistics for these blackspots improve significantly.  The book, however, then presents data for the areas surrounding the blackspots.  In these surrounding areas, accident statistics get much worse following treatment of the blackspot.  Again this is attributed to the enforced "safe, no risk" zone causing increased risk taking in the surrounding area.


Am I going to get to a point?

Unless individuals' personal risk is increased, I don't think it is possible to force people to drive more safely.  But the risk could be increased in many ways :

: Ban seat belts and air bags (contraversial)
: Place a large steel spike in the middle of the steering wheel (contraversial)
: Automatic penalties for at-fault accidents, particularly loss of license rather
: Risk responsibility, or penalties scaled with risk exposure.  E.g., if you are driving an SUV with  top protection rating and you cause an accident, your penalty should be harsher than if you were riding a motorbike.

and lots of others.


The only one that I really support is at-fault accident penalties.  In the UK, I find the situation totally bizarre.  If I have an at-fault accident (never have yet, touch wood), I get no penalty points on my license.  In fact, the insurance industry decides what penalty I get, by increasing my premium an essentially trivial amount.  However, by driving past a speed camera at 5mph above the limit in clear dry weather on an open empty road using all the additional driver training I've had to the best of my abilities on my well maintained motorbike, I would get penalty points.  What a joke.

Soap box dismount.

A


Ps:  Yes I know I dont own a Triumph anymore, I just like the list :-)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: st-triumphnet.com-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:st-triumphnet.com-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On 
> Behalf Of Rolo
> Casos
> Sent: 10 August 2005 21:57
> To: ST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ST] Accidents (was (mandatory jail (was IDIOTS))
> 
> 
> That is the problem, it should be a crime.  It is criminal negligence 
> when lack of care kills someone.  Civil courts are a  joke, the only 
> ones that make out are the lawyers at the end, and insurance company 
> lawyers work very hard to screw victims out of restitution.  In the 
> mean time, the idiot that kills someone hardly feels any punishment, 
> because they pay their $40 a month in insurance.  There is 
> practically 
> nothing to make people think about taking their driving 
> responsibilities seriously.  Maybe if we faced the 
> possibility of time 
> in jail for killing someone with our carelessness, we might 
> care about 
> how we drive a little more.
> 
> Rolo
> '01 Sprint ST
> 
> 
> On Aug 10, 2005, at 9:24 AM, david.funk@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > As you say "And we should be liable for screw ups. "
> > That is what civil courts are for, and they work very well in this 
> > country.
> > Jail is for crime.
> >
> > David W. Funk
> > Pleasanton, CA
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> >
> >> I can not disagree more, The whole idea of accident does 
> not apply to
> >> 95% of car Vs. pedestrian, biker or motorcyclist 
> incidents. These are
> >> not "accidents" , they are MISTAKES and drivers need to be 
> responsible
> >> for their mistakes, specially when they kill somebody. Imagine that
> >> for some weird reason you have to walk out of your house with a
> >> machine gun on hand, finger on the trigger pointing it at everyone
> >> around you, how careful would you have to be if you had to 
> walk around
> >> town like this? Well, as silly as this sounds, driving a car is not
> >> much different. Every minute on the road you have the potential of
> >> killing somebody and you should take that seriously. If 
> you did not,
> >> and didn't bother to hang up you cell before driving, or 
> taking a GOOD
> >> look before crossing traffic, or drive too fast for conditions and
> >> equipment you are on, or Drink and drive, or drive so 
> tired you fall
> >> sleep, it is not an accident, it is a screw up. And we should be 
> >> liable
> >> for screw ups. We have to be made responsible for not 
> giving enough of
> >> a shit about people that share the roads with us. Now lets say you
> >> drive over a nail and blow a front tire in the freeway and loose
> >> control, now that is an accident, but how many of these kinds of
> >> incidents have taken the lives of our friends, compared to 
> the idiot
> >> that just blew a stop. I personally am sick of watching people get
> >> away with murder. We have to try to make a change on the 
> current laws.
> >>
> >> Rolo
> >> '01 Sprint
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 9, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Steve Bergman wrote:
> >>
> >>> I agree with David. I am sorry for the loss of friends in 
> senseless
> >>> tragic
> >>> accidents and I am always extra sad when I read about 
> losses posted 
> >>> on
> >>> this
> >>> list.
> >>>
> >>> But...please remember that the way our country has 
> structured itself
> >>> encourages
> >>> dependency on driving cars. The average person cannot function
> >>> without owning
> >>> and operating a car and that means that there are a lot of average
> >>> people out
> >>> there driving around. Humans in general are accident 
> prone and when
> >>> you are
> >>> hurtling down a road at the helm of a 2000lb hunk of metal a small
> >>> distraction
> >>> can lead to disaster. I don't think that makes the operator a 
> >>> criminal.
> >>>
> >>> It's one thing if someone is drunk or flagrantly 
> disregarding the law
> >>> but I'm
> >>> sorry....a person can accidentally run a stop sign or pull into 
> >>> traffic
> >>> thinking it's clear when it's not....still just accidents and not
> >>> crimes.
> >>>
> >>> When you factor in that we are operating a vehicle that is much
> >>> smaller and
> >>> faster than 90something percent of what the average 
> driver is looking
> >>> at then
> >>> accidents are even more likely.
> >>>
> >>> Think how quickly most accidents happen then think about how many
> >>> times your
> >>> eyes are not directly in front of you when you're 
> driving. One quick
> >>> glance
> >>> left, right or anywhere else is enough time for the unexpected to
> >>> happen...does
> >>> that make you a criminal?
> >>>
> >>> My thoughts and regards to all who have suffered a loss.
> >>>
> >>> Steve Bergman
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- david.funk@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I disagree!
> >>>> I don't think having an ACCIDENT should mean mandatory jail.
> >>>> I think we must accept that bad things can happen.
> >>>>
> >>>> But an accident is NOT a drunk driver, running a stop 
> sign, or other
> >>>> avoidable things.
> >>>>
> >>>> David W. Funk
> >>>> Pleasanton, CA
> >>>>
> >>>> -------------- Original message --------------
> >>>>
> >>>>> At 12:03 PM 8/9/2005 - 
> >>>>> st-triumphnet.com-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> offered:
> >>>>>> Last year a drunk pickup truck driver (.12 IIRC) killed a rider
> >>>>>> last year
> >>>>>> and messed up the passenger petty badly near my 
> daughter's house.
> >>>>>> All he
> >>>>>> got was a slap on the wrist!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think *we* are partly to blame for not making our 
> wishes known to
> >>>>> our
> >>>>> various state representatives and the AMA by supporting 
> a mandatory
> >>>>> jail
> >>>>> sentence for anyone killing others on the road. As it stands
> >>>>> currently
> >>>>> there is no such law on the books, hence sentences are light. We
> >>>>> need a
> >>>>> MADD equivalent for motorcyclists, instead most m/c riders just
> >>>>> don't care
> >>>>> to get involved in politics. But that is what is really needed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ken T. from Ca.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After your hands become coated with grease, your nose 
> will begin to
> >>>>> itch.
> >>>>> - --Lorenz's Law of Mechanical Repair
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 95' Trident, 99' Triumph Sprint ST, 02' Bonneville
> >>>>> http://www.labiker.com/members/index.php?cc63d31418542
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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