Re: st-digest V2001 #323

[kwh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Ken Haylock)]

 >> if you come around only to realize
 >> it's a decreasing radius with any kind of surface problems (sand,ice,
 >> parked car) you're screwed.
 >
 > Funny, I would then go around the courner slower. I guess it depends
 > on exactly how blind and how tight the corner is. It is simply
 > amazing how much a modern day bike can slow down going from the
 > inside tire track to the outer.

The earlier you see something, the earlier you can react to it. The further
out you are, the more you can see, and the earlier you see it. So for any
given speed, the further out you are on the road, everything else being
equal, the safer you are.

 > Frankly, is the street the track. NO!

I don't think that has much to do with the racetrack, to be honest - racing
lines on the road have you turning in and apexing far earlier than I would
usually want to on the road unless I could see the exit and beyond right
through the corner...

 > When I am on the street I ride for lean, so whether I am on the
 > inside tire track or outside tire track I am going for the same
 > lean,

Just out of interest, could I ask why? In my experience, angle of dangle
isn't really much of an indicator of anything, except... angle of dangle.
I can be going fast or slow, with one or both tyres heavily or lightly
loaded, at pretty much any maximum lean angle, the other relevant variable
being how quickly I'm turning the bike - and that's only loosely related to
how tight the corner is. On the road, I'm riding for the view so I usually
run as upright as possible into blind corners, out wide and nice and deep,
which gives me the best view through the corner towards the exit. I set my
speed on the road based on the principle that I can always stop more or less
in the distance I can see to be clear, which means that if there's a tree
down across the road just out of sight round a blind corner then I'm
allowing time to stop before I pile into it, by turning the bike quickly if
necessary before standing it up and braking hard.  Anyway, hopefully, if I'm
taking a line for the view on the road, I'll see the exit, which is to say
the point where the limit or vanishing point opens out (which means the
corner finishes) and when I see that, I turn hard towards a convenient apex
of my own choosing using classic Code style cornering techniques. The line
is very square compared to what you'd use on a track with the same corner,
and the lean angle is far higher at the chosen speed (for much less time,
though) but in the absence of marshals [corner workers?] to wave red and
yellow flags at you when there's a sand/oil slick just out of your view
round the next bend, or indeed necessarily any idea where the next bend
goes, much less risky.

If you just lean the bike over the same amount for any corner and adjust
speed to keep it there, I presume that means you like to take smooth
sweeping lines round every corner. How do you set your speed for entry? In a
long decreasing radius turn, does that mean you either have to brake while
cranked over or break your self imposed limit and lean more?

 > As well I might suggest that if the corner is so blind that riding
 > a righty on the inside track causes you to hit foleage because of
 > the lean, you are going way to fast (hope we agree here :-)

If you can't stop in the distance you can see to be clear, then you'll
probably hit anything that is just past what you can see, and although
that's not a common problem, it has only got to happen once for you to have
a bad day. A really nasty example would be a fallen telephone pole across
the road just out of sight - if you are out wide you'll see it early and
probably be able to stop before you even need to start a turn. If you are
turning to the inside, you may not see it until it is right under your front
wheels - and then you need to stop in a real hurry while cranked over.

 > I simply applied the brakes, the bike stood up as it should,

Again, an interesting approach. I may have the wrong end of the stick here,
but applying the brakes in a corner will load the front tyre up - which will
do one of two things in my experience - cause the bike to stand up if you
are lucky, or cause the front wheel to wash out and low-side you if you
aren't. If I /do/ need to stand the bike up to brake, my experience is that
it is best to flick it up with the bars before braking - I've found it's
quicker and less likely to drop me on the road...

 > dropped
 > from ~80 down to probably close to 40 going from the left tire
 > track to the right, got back into lean as I progressive reduce
 > braking, and went over the gravel at a much safer speed. The extra
 > 5-10 ft of warning I would have had riding in the outer lane would
 > not have done us anything. We would have been going for a short
 > off road excursion before we hit the trees. Either that or a low/high
 > side caused by the pavement-gravel-pavement trasitions/sliding.

Again, interesting. For myself, I might have handled that slightly
differently. First, allowing for that "always stop in the distance I can
see" thing, I would hope that I would have been able to tighten the turn,
stand the bike up and stop before the gravel when I saw it if I'd thought I
had to. After all, if it had been - e.g. - a log or a girder that had fallen
from a truck then I guess you'd have probably hit it from what you describe.
But actually, I don't think I'd have had to stop, again from the way you
describe it - I'd just have tightened my turn before I reached it (i.e.
countersteered to lean the bike harder), and then stood the bike up with the
bars as I crossed the trench line straight ahead, and then turned in again
after it.

 > Anyway, got on the brakes and started to turn,

Again, interesting - could I ask why? In my experience, unless you are going
at a speed where you are going to run out of ground clearance and lever the
back tyre right off the ground (and who rides like that on the road for very
long without a lot of pain?), any corner you can make with the brakes on
will be /much/ easier to make with them off, and the throttle open. And if
you /are/ that far over, then  touching the brakes will probably have you
off anyway. Conversely, if I decide I need to enter a corner more slowly on
the road, I can brake like a bastard in a straight line, much more so than I
ever could while cranked over, and then simply turn in quicker, tighter and
later. Unless I am going to run right off the edge of the tyres or lever a
wheel off the road, I don't believe a steeper instantaneous lean angle will
make me noticeably any more or less likely to crash than a shallow one,
certainly not compared with braking while turning in or mid corner -
particularly in the dark where I can't see the road surface or what may be
on it. It's how loaded the tyres are that affects that risk, and dragging a
peg round a big fast sweeper on the track loads them much more than e.g.
touching them down for an instant while exiting a roundabout [traffic
circle?].

 > back wheel slid out about 1-2 feet,

Ouch! :-)

 > went to a neutral throttle (from what I could tell) or more to say I gave
 > it a small bit of gas and slowly got off the rear brake.

They do say that if you have to use any brake while cranked over, it's the
rear - but I've only found that to be an issue a couple of times when I've
cocked it up and needed to slow for reasons of a hazard or obstruction while
cranked over. Mick Doohan even used to use his rear brake on the track to
deliberately do what you did because when the back stepped out it turned the
bike quicker, and he could then spin the tyre up and slide it on the way out
of the corner - but he was and is a riding god, so I don't try to copy him
myself, even on the track, let alone the road :-). Most times when most
people try that shit, it ends in hospital after a high-side. My guess is
that you were either very lucky, or you should be racing... :-) !!!

Strange how different people have different ideas about how to ride, isn't
it. Who teaches the techniques you use and do they have any literature I
might look at?


Ken Haylock


     *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
      The ST/RS Mailing list is sponsored by Jack Lilley Ltd.
          http://www.TriumphNet.com/st/lilley for more info
   http://www.TriumphNet.com/st for ST, RS and Mailing List info

=-=-=-= Next Message =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

End of st-digest V2001 #325
***************************


 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                      End of Triumph ST/RS Digest
            ST/RS Digest is sponsored by Jack Lilley Ltd.
          http://www.TriumphNet.com/st/lilley for more info
   http://www.TriumphNet.com/st for ST, RS and Mailing List info

          This digest Copyright 1999-2001 TriumphNet.com